1 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-10 17:48:44)

Topic: Questions for Don Primarily.

Just finished the first Volume of Churchill's WWII history which I very much enjoyed (now delving into the second volume) and I was struck by the still existing class bias (including bias against colonials) in the Royal Navy and the problems with reforming it.

First Question:  Was the Royal Navy worse/better than other service branches?

Second Question:  How had this come about in the first place?  and why did it continue for so long.  I mean it was over 2,200 years since the Marian reforms of Rome, you'd think they would have gotten a clue by now...

Third Question: Was Churchill the only major figure to see this as a big problem, his mainly biographical account of WWII makes it seem like he is leading this fight, but were there other leaders for reform?


Unrelated question:  Why were the Brits so slow in developing armor design and tactics during the between war years after inventing the tank?  I have seen enough history to know what happened in France, despite arguments of DeGaulle, but what is the story in Britain?  I know the desire to not spend money during peacetime was a factor, but there seems to be a bit more required to have slowed it down so much.

"That is the tank they named after me when they found out it was no damn good!"
-Winston Churchill

2 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-11 23:16:41)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Add one more question.

Don, in your opinion would having Ironside instead of Gort incharge of the BEF have made a difference? 

The more I read the more I think that while not altering the end result of the Battle of France, Ironside at the helm may have preserved it, not so much after the frontier was crossed (although that is arguable) but during the phoney war period.  Seems like Ironside in charge would have not trusted the French analysis and preparations as much as Gort seems to have done.  But then again much of this was under Chamberlain and Neville might have just had Ironsides sacked if he upset the French too much by questioning their approach...something even Churchill was somewhat guilty of.

This may be blasphemy to the Brits, but Gort doesn't impress me much, although I do credit him with realizing the helpless condition of the French High Command before the Brit government did, and preparing for evacuation before ordered when it was obvious the French High Command had no will and composure.  Ironside on the other hand seemed to realize this much faster though and I have to wonder is his lack of diplomatic skills and dislike of the French might have shaken then up enough to shake their lethargy.

Also by God, Ironside is a helluva soldier name and he has that Warrior General look in spades.

https://historylearning.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Edmund_Ironside_3b4639bdc8.jpg

I mean this looks like a warrior among a troop of boyscouts

https://www.sundaypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2018/05/5b0023b5990c0-e1526736432758.jpg

And you can tell he is military even in a civilian suit

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Stachiewicz_Ironside.jpg

The man looks an Achilles, or maybe more accurately an Ajax.


Gort on the other hand looked like Major Dad.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/general-lord-gort-commanded-the-british-expeditionary-force-in-france-picture-id615311714?s=612x612

https://www.themoviedb.org/t/p/w500/qOFp3vszwK8qQ24JvytgvalURUi.jpg

3

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Chuut wrote:

Just finished the first Volume of Churchill's WWII history which I very much enjoyed (now delving into the second volume) and I was struck by the still existing class bias (including bias against colonials) in the Royal Navy and the problems with reforming it.

First Question:  Was the Royal Navy worse/better than other service branches?

Second Question:  How had this come about in the first place?  and why did it continue for so long.  I mean it was over 2,200 years since the Marian reforms of Rome, you'd think they would have gotten a clue by now...

Third Question: Was Churchill the only major figure to see this as a big problem, his mainly biographical account of WWII makes it seem like he is leading this fight, but were there other leaders for reform?


Unrelated question:  Why were the Brits so slow in developing armor design and tactics during the between war years after inventing the tank?  I have seen enough history to know what happened in France, despite arguments of DeGaulle, but what is the story in Britain?  I know the desire to not spend money during peacetime was a factor, but there seems to be a bit more required to have slowed it down so much.

"That is the tank they named after me when they found out it was no damn good!"
-Winston Churchill


1. I think it was the same in all three services, slightly less in RAF because of needs must they had Sergeant Pilots.

2. I am not sure I understand the question. If you mean why were the officers all drawn from a certain class, well that was the same in just about every armed service throughout the world and not what you know but who you know pretty much applied to the whole world then, and if we are honest still does. remember the thing about class (anywhere) is that is much overblown by those "concerned" about it whether for or against. In my view "Class" is generally something bantered about by metropolitan elites from the extremes of the political spectrum. This is universal. IRL I find or did find we were pretty much a meritocracy, well until the last 20 years or so anyway.

3. Again "reform" was subjective and patchy, but like giving women the vote was inevitable and inexorable. War is the great leveller and society everywhere was changed after both World Wars

4. Actually the Brits were at the forefront of tank design interwar and were regarded as some of the best if not the best. remember German success in the Blitzkrieg was not because of the quality of the tanks, but how they were used.

5. The Churchill did what it was designed to do, very well, the problem was what it was designed to do was an obsolescent theory. Having said that in the infantry support mode it was second to none.

This is the bitterest pain among men,
To have much knowledge , but no power.

Herodotus

4

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

I do not think a change of leadership for the BEF would have made any difference, remember they held and the French crumbled to the south. The Brits were obliged to follow the French plan in the first place being under their command. That plan was the advance into Belgium and rely on the Maginot line to prevent being out flanked and stop a Schlieffen. The fact  that Rommel was was Rommel and knew how to fight and was the "Ghost Division" even to OKW and OKH makes it clear it really didn't matter who was in charge of the BEF. Having said that the minor counter attack at Arras did require the genius of Rommel to stop it by impressing the 88s for the first time into antitank mode and thus the legend was born.

This is the bitterest pain among men,
To have much knowledge , but no power.

Herodotus

5

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

I do not think a change of leadership for the BEF would have made any difference, remember they held and the French crumbled to the south. The Brits were obliged to follow the French plan in the first place being under their command. That plan was the advance into Belgium and rely on the Maginot line to prevent being out flanked and stop a Schlieffen. The fact  that Rommel was was Rommel and knew how to fight and was the "Ghost Division" even to OKW and OKH makes it clear it really didn't matter who was in charge of the BEF. Having said that the minor counter attack at Arras did require the genius of Rommel to stop it by impressing the 88s for the first time into antitank mode and thus the legend was born.

I think you missed the emphasis of my question.

The more I read the more I think that while not altering the end result of the Battle of France, Ironside at the helm may have preserved it, not so much after the frontier was crossed (although that is arguable) but during the phoney war period.

The phoney war period was my main question not once the battle got heated.

6 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 01:47:01)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

IRL I find or did find we were pretty much a meritocracy, well until the last 20 years or so anyway.

Churchill seems to disagree with that in his book.  He points out that several of the best performing candidates on the officer examinations were turned down by the board based on class until he personally intervened.  In fact he went on to raise the issue about the whole process and its flaws.

7 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 02:43:05)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

Actually the Brits were at the forefront of tank design interwar and were regarded as some of the best if not the best.

Maybe by the Brits, LOL  And maybe by everyone until the early 1920s...but...

I'd say the Czechs were at the forefront on the national level, and the German tanks were not all that good until the Czech designs entered the Wehrmacht. The Poles also score highly surprisingly, but they didn't produce many but came up with some important inovations. The Polish 7TP light tank was the first tank in the world to be equipped with a diesel engine and 360° Gundlach periscope.  The French tanks also seem better than those of the Brits in design although horrid French doctrine made them largely useless.  The Matilda II was formidable but slow as hell and only 2 were operational at the start of the war and it wasn't designed until 1936.....instead there was the Matilda I which only had a vickers for armaments.  It was an crawling heavily armored machine gun nest, not really a tank as we think of them today.  Most of the Brit tank development budget after WWI has gone into the failed project the Medium Mark D.  The Cruiser MK I was a decent tank but nothing particularly special.  It had decent speed and a decent gun for the time but poor armor.  The Cruiser came about after the Brits were impressed by a demonstration of Soviet BT tanks in 1936. and the BT was based off the suspension design of an American J. Walter Christie, as was the T-34, British Covenanter and Crusader,  and Comet tanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Walter_Christie

This private inventor was at the top as the best Brit and Russian designs came largely from him....well except for one...

The Sherman Firefly which came about because none of the Brit tanks could fit in a Ordnance QF 17-pounder, and a Brit design to do so, the A30 Challenger, had to have its armor reduced to mount the gun.  Furthermore there was confusion in the Brit tank design agencies and the problem of limited production so few A30s were produced (about 200) whereas the Firefly had over 2,100 units.

8 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 03:01:44)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Now all that being said, the Brits did make excellent tank guns, and were definitely among the top if not the very top in engine design....how many tanks and planes were made superior with the inclusion of a Rolls Royce engine....

But that aside, what was the greatest contribution of the UK during the second World War was, in my opinion,  the indomitable spirit of her people which far surpassed that of any nation involved save perhaps the Finns (but under very different circumstances).  No commissars were needed to hold guns on the armed forces of the UK to hold up morale even in many of the darkest of hours at Calais, at Tobruk, and in the North Atlantic, the spirit of Mons was preserved,  no secret police to keep the civilian population in terror.  This was the bastion of strength upon which Churchill stood upon and reflected to the world, and his was the voice that in turn gave strength and resolve to all segments of the British society and the leaders, armies, navies, and civilians of the other nations of the world. 

Or let me put it another way, in the large, The USA was the machine that furnished victory, the USSR was the blood, and the UK was the Spirit.  Any 1 alone would not have sufficed, any 2 would leave the outcome in doubt, all three together were unstoppable.

9 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 05:15:25)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

remember they held and the French crumbled to the south.

Well a Thinly spread group of substandard divisions shouldn't be expected to hold against the main German Thrust.  That is something like 9 divisions (2 fortress divisions, 5 not regular army divisions and 2 regular army divisions) against something like  30-45  German divisions including 7 panzer divisions. The BEF along with the Belgian Army the Dutch Army and the French 1st and Seventh Armies was facing only 18 divisions.  Specifically in the BEF section it was 9 British and 17 Belgian divisions up against 17 German divisions (2 of which were panzer divisions).  That is in numbers a 3 to 2 advantage  for the defender on the allied side opposed to the overwhelming Axis advantage over the French 9th Army.

The breaching of the French was a fault in planning not of the men themselves (aside from the High Command)  The Brits were facing a diversionary action so them holding in limited action is no superlative feat and had no real impact (aside from maybe morale of performing satisfactorily individually in their first engagements) as they were soon to be retreating anyways.

Now had 9 divisions of the BEF with two of them being fortress troops held at the Ninth's assigned area against the 45.5 German divisions you might have some bragging rights over the French troops in that regard.  I certainly suspect that although the BEF would have done better by a fair stretch they still would have been broken, they might have held out another day or two as they were in larger proportion regular army type soldiers.

Maybe I misread what you said, but it looked to be a "we were better than the French" boast.  I agree that the BEF was indeed better than a second rate or worse mostly reserves formation of the French, but I think the Brits would have also be broken in that situation.  This was a worse situation than at Malaya and Singapore, and we know how that ended for the Brits....85,000 captured by an army of only 35,000.  So they didn't fare well with an attack from an unexpected direction including a water crossing, and defending with some subpar units either.

Now if that wasn't the boast and I am mistaken I withdraw the argument against such a boast.

10

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Chuut wrote:
Cesca wrote:

I do not think a change of leadership for the BEF would have made any difference, remember they held and the French crumbled to the south. The Brits were obliged to follow the French plan in the first place being under their command. That plan was the advance into Belgium and rely on the Maginot line to prevent being out flanked and stop a Schlieffen. The fact  that Rommel was was Rommel and knew how to fight and was the "Ghost Division" even to OKW and OKH makes it clear it really didn't matter who was in charge of the BEF. Having said that the minor counter attack at Arras did require the genius of Rommel to stop it by impressing the 88s for the first time into antitank mode and thus the legend was born.

I think you missed the emphasis of my question.

The more I read the more I think that while not altering the end result of the Battle of France, Ironside at the helm may have preserved it, not so much after the frontier was crossed (although that is arguable) but during the phoney war period.

The phoney war period was my main question not once the battle got heated.

The Decision to forward deploy was political, the French did not the war on their soil. Churchill, (not for the last time) made a political decision which was imposed on the military. So again, it really didn't matter who was in charge. The strategy and the tactics were wrong. The decision to forward deploy which Rommel foresaw when he created the plan for the invasion, was integral to that plan as it envisaged breaking through the soft hinge between of the Maginot line and the Elite French forces which would then be trapped. The Brits could be isolated, fixed to their front and then surrounded which is exactly what happened.

The genius of Rommel made whoever was in charge of the BEF irrelevant as the BEF were subject to the flawed French forward deployment/Maginot strategy.

This is the bitterest pain among men,
To have much knowledge , but no power.

Herodotus

11

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Chuut wrote:
Cesca wrote:

Actually the Brits were at the forefront of tank design interwar and were regarded as some of the best if not the best.

Maybe by the Brits, LOL  And maybe by everyone until the early 1920s...but...

I'd say the Czechs were at the forefront on the national level, and the German tanks were not all that good until the Czech designs entered the Wehrmacht. The Poles also score highly surprisingly, but they didn't produce many but came up with some important inovations. The Polish 7TP light tank was the first tank in the world to be equipped with a diesel engine and 360° Gundlach periscope.  The French tanks also seem better than those of the Brits in design although horrid French doctrine made them largely useless.  The Matilda II was formidable but slow as hell and only 2 were operational at the start of the war and it wasn't designed until 1936.....instead there was the Matilda I which only had a vickers for armaments.  It was an crawling heavily armored machine gun nest, not really a tank as we think of them today.  Most of the Brit tank development budget after WWI has gone into the failed project the Medium Mark D.  The Cruiser MK I was a decent tank but nothing particularly special.  It had decent speed and a decent gun for the time but poor armor.  The Cruiser came about after the Brits were impressed by a demonstration of Soviet BT tanks in 1936. and the BT was based off the suspension design of an American J. Walter Christie, as was the T-34, British Covenanter and Crusader,  and Comet tanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Walter_Christie

This private inventor was at the top as the best Brit and Russian designs came largely from him....well except for one...

The Sherman Firefly which came about because none of the Brit tanks could fit in a Ordnance QF 17-pounder, and a Brit design to do so, the A30 Challenger, had to have its armor reduced to mount the gun.  Furthermore there was confusion in the Brit tank design agencies and the problem of limited production so few A30s were produced (about 200) whereas the Firefly had over 2,100 units.

LOL you were talking about inter war years and have veered wildly off into mid late war tanks!!

Christie suspension wa sbig all round and initially snubbed by the US and taken up by the Europeans.

The Vickers 10 ton tank was widely regarded at the time as the best tank of the mid war years, but was a private venture and did not fit the British army doctrine. The Czechs made some excellent chassis based on the T38, which the Germans readily adopted. The German tanks were incapable of stopping the the hideously slow machine gun armed Matilda 1, which did make great inroads at Arras  until that man Rommel (again) turned a FLAK battery armed with 88s on them. Even the light Whippets, when used by O'Connor were a match for the Italian medium tanks, even though they were only machine gun armed. The Matilda 2 was pretty much invincible until the Panzer IV ausf H with a long barrelled 75mm was introduced into the desert. The Panzer III even with the high velocity 50mm could only stop it from the flanks. Again it was the ubiquitous 88 used in conjunction with Rommel's tactics and the harshness of the terrain on mechanicals that did for it. That and the fact that the 2pdr (40mm) gun was only given AP rounds despite the fact that there were HE rounds available in the UK they were not sent to Africa, so the 88's could not be engaged effectively.

This is the bitterest pain among men,
To have much knowledge , but no power.

Herodotus

12

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Chuut wrote:
Cesca wrote:

IRL I find or did find we were pretty much a meritocracy, well until the last 20 years or so anyway.

Churchill seems to disagree with that in his book.  He points out that several of the best performing candidates on the officer examinations were turned down by the board based on class until he personally intervened.  In fact he went on to raise the issue about the whole process and its flaws.

"Class" is not the preserve of the English and the same thing was universal even in America at the time. Many "good people" were not promoted or even made it to West Point or Pensacola because they were not the "right people"! It was the case in "egalitarian France, Nazi Germany, Fascist Spain/Italy, Japan and China. Even the Bolsheviks were subject to it but like the Nazi's it was party allegiance which got you promotion, not merit.

This is the bitterest pain among men,
To have much knowledge , but no power.

Herodotus

13

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

The decision to forward deploy which Rommel foresaw when he created the plan for the invasion, was integral to that plan as it envisaged breaking through the soft hinge between of the Maginot line and the Elite French forces which would then be trapped. The Brits could be isolated, fixed to their front and then surrounded which is exactly what happened.

The genius of Rommel made whoever was in charge of the BEF irrelevant as the BEF were subject to the flawed French forward deployment/Maginot strategy.

Ummm... not Rommel but Manstein and Rundstedt

14 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 23:08:45)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

The Decision to forward deploy was political, the French did not the war on their soil. Churchill, (not for the last time) made a political decision which was imposed on the military. So again, it really didn't matter who was in charge.

I'm not so sure.

When there is a political decision that is a problem having the man who is least politically correct in charge can be a plus.  Some of the Brit military had raised the question of light defenses in the Ardennes, but allowed themselves to be assure by the French that this wasn't a big problem.  A guy like Ironside who would raise a bit of hell and who had no love or trust of the French and their planning might have caused enough disturbance to if not change entirelyat least have modifications made....

Then again, more likely it would just have gotten him sacked and replaced by the more pliable Gort anyhow.

As for Churchills decision. it wasn't entirely political....he had 2 big military reasons for wanting to move forward.

1) To use the Belgian and Dutch divisions to help balance the army strength and Dutch ports for supply

2) To have a jump off point for an offensive strike that the German industrial belt just across the borders.

As for the French I totally agree with your position, after the horrors of WWI fought on French soil they wanted to let someone else have a turn instead.

15

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:
Chuut wrote:
Cesca wrote:

IRL I find or did find we were pretty much a meritocracy, well until the last 20 years or so anyway.

Churchill seems to disagree with that in his book.  He points out that several of the best performing candidates on the officer examinations were turned down by the board based on class until he personally intervened.  In fact he went on to raise the issue about the whole process and its flaws.

"Class" is not the preserve of the English and the same thing was universal even in America at the time. Many "good people" were not promoted or even made it to West Point or Pensacola because they were not the "right people"! It was the case in "egalitarian France, Nazi Germany, Fascist Spain/Italy, Japan and China. Even the Bolsheviks were subject to it but like the Nazi's it was party allegiance which got you promotion, not merit.

No doubt true to a large extent, but in varying degrees.  U.S. Grant went to West point and rose to command the Union armies yet his father was a simple tanner, and Grant wasn't exactly a gentleman.  Connections helped on to get in, but there doesn't appear to be the same exclusion in the US due to class as was in the UK nearly a century later. 

As for China, not a good example there, as China was one of the first meritocracies and examination scores totally trumped social class for centuries.  In Japan after the Meiji restoration class privilege's were largely abolished.  The Japanese army had many leaders from Samurai families, especially in the oldest generations of the military, but also people of humble roots not far below that (Lt General generation) where sons of doctors and schoolteachers could be found without samurai class ancestory.

16 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 23:32:57)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

LOL you were talking about inter war years and have veered wildly off into mid late war tanks!!

Not really the last bit was just a footnote about the American designer of the chassis of best Brit and Russian tanks ...and then an addition comment noting that there was one exception among the best Brit tanks (occurring later) but that it was a modified American tank.

If the Brits were so awesome at tank designs as you claim, why was everyone else making the innovations they had to copy from, and not very well so they fell back on American tanks.

17 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 23:35:47)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

Christie suspension was big all round and initially snubbed by the US and taken up by the Europeans.

Very true.  All these supposed European governments and militaries being "masters of tank design" with massive budgets being surpassed by an American private citizen.

18 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 23:48:08)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

The Vickers 10 ton tank

It must have gotten fatter in the years since, just like those old guy miles walking to school in the snow get longer each retelling.

Back in its prime it was known as the Vickers 6 ton tank though.  big_smile

But as you say it was rejected by the British army after evaluation, and it wasn't a Brit government project.

19 (edited by Chuut 2021-03-13 23:54:57)

Re: Questions for Don Primarily.

Cesca wrote:

The German tanks were incapable of stopping the the hideously slow machine gun armed Matilda 1,

But they never needed to.  A tank that can't make it to the next battle doesn't help much.  It was about as useful as a Phalanx surrounded by hostile Mongolian horse archers.

Even the light Whippets, when used by O'Connor were a match for the Italian medium tanks, even though they were only machine gun armed[

You know what the quickest and most decisive way to tell if a tank totally sucks?

People arguing its virtuous have to compare it to Italian tanks.